SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome everybody to the Sandwich Bread Podcast. I'm your host, Tom Kaminsky. Conversations about life and money, specifically tailored to the sandwich generation. So I'm very excited for today's guest, Annie Raymeyer. Welcome, Annie.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Thank you, Tom. I'm very excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Yeah, we're excited to have you. And today we'll be talking about estate planning. Woo! If you're a client of Twin Robins, you have heard me ask you about your estate plan. I'll let Annie lean in on this. Every single person needs one. Confirm or deny.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Absolutely confirm. Most people put it off.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

The most important thing is to take steps toward getting it done. But with this episode today, we're going to talk about mistakes that you often encounter when you're looking at estate plans.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

If a client is knowledgeable going into the process, that can help everything go much more smoothly and just make it more enjoyable if possible.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Okay. We need to learn a little bit more about Annie. First of all, you go to SLU, St. Louis University for undergrad.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Then KU for law school. Then out of law school, you actually get into teaching.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Right. Well, I started teaching during undergrad. I taught test prep, LSAT, GRE, and GMET, and helped people apply to grad school, which was really fun. And I enjoyed that. Um after graduating law school, I worked at a big firm in investment services in Chicago. And it was all the horror stories you hear about big firms, big cities. Um so I wanted to regroup um and got back into teaching. I did that for a total of 13 years. I thoroughly enjoy educating people, and so I bring that to every client interaction. I stopped teaching before the pandemic, stayed home for a couple years. When I approached re-entering legal practice, I landed on estate planning. It just so happens that a law school friend, Jamie, my partner, was looking for the right person to join her. And so the stars aligned. And that was in 2023 that I started working with Jamie. So she is a wealth of knowledge, experience, and brings all of that to the table. And I lean much more both at home and at work to in the empathy direction. I'm like, yeah, we're all human.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

In our profession as well, being empathetic and education-oriented is super important. A lot of people they just want reliable answers efficiently from a trusted source. And I think a marrying of education and empathy is why they hire us. And you are also a collegiate runner. Do you still run?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

I do. And actually uh our oldest really enjoys running.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

That's a cool part of your history to bring the table. Well, let's let's dive into it. Um, so today's topics, we're gonna have we're have five common estate planning mistakes that you run into in your practice. So the first one on our list here is hiring an attorney and then not following their advice, meaning funding the trust or which estate planning approach is best.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

So with every trust estate plan that we create, we have a detailed to-do list. What client provides us with all of their assets? And then their to-do list is to get this asset to go into your trust in an ideal way to avoid overpaying taxes and maximize your estate size. Um our clients with less on their daily plate, like our retired clients, are all about those to-do lists and like getting it done. But then if for our clients in their 30s and 40s, we're in that crunch time period. You know, we have younger kids at home, we're busy with our own work. And so understandably, that to-do list can fall by the wayside. Even so much of it is online now. So doing those beneficiary designations, all of those things. So just keeping in mind that it doesn't function unless you do your part, basically.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah. Are there little tactics or techniques you knew you use to push through the inertia in the process?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

We understand also that our, especially our younger clients, are very busy. So we try to plan those meetings out from the get-go. Once they decide that they want to move forward, we say, okay, this this is the number of meetings that are possible. This is what will happen at those meetings, no more than an hour each. Um, I really try to just have people get their calendars out and schedule. And what we say is that we'll put your signing date on all of your documents. So let's go ahead and schedule it.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

And then we can change it. But also it's on the calendar.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

That's just and it also signals to them this process will end. It's on this calendar.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

I know, right? You don't have to keep meeting with me.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

So that's number one. Number two, we're using an online estate planning tool.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So, yeah, what issues, what issues do you see with this?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

I mean, if you want to avoid probate, don't do that, please. It's not an error in the software, it's more that the software assumes that you know what you're doing. And the knowledge is so specialized that even if you have a set idea in mind of what you want to put in place, if you don't have have a strong background in estate planning law, you will not know how to fill it out. We do estate planning and probate, and we're trying to put the probate out of business. Our probate side frequently is fueled by these do-it-yourself estate plans. So it's more that people are trying and making a good faith effort, but don't know.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Real quick on the probate side, could you offer just a quick definition to the audience of what's probate versus non-probate with estate planning?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

So probate is what happens after someone passes away when they have an asset or their entire estate that is not directed to a living person. So sometimes people just do beneficiary designations or like transfer on death, payable on death to somebody for all of their assets, and that would avoid probate.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

But also you can avoid probate if you send everything to a trust, and your trust is detailed on how you want your estate divided up.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Impression is that probate is more costly usually to the estate, and then it can, depending on the state, not estate, the state the person who passed resides in, it may take a prolonged period of time to sort that out. And that varies by state.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Exactly. So like the minimum amount of time that an estate would be in probate minimum is about six months to just sort it out. Similarly, the minimum cost to be expected with probate is like six to eight thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Okay. Is that for Kansas?

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yep. Okay. For Kansas. Okay. Helpful to know. So saves costs, saves time. And my impression is that with if you've got your beneficiary designations in place properly, it could take a matter of weeks. You get a death certificate and present it to the custodian or whoever or the bank. Right. And they'll process their updates and transfer it over. Exactly. Less time and over generally less cost. So yeah, that's what as a planner, I'm always looking. Do you have a plan in place? Is there a trust? Do we have the trust properly funded? And if we think there's any question, we bring in the estate planning attorney and and get guidance on how to have everything titled properly and make sure this the estate is settled as you wish.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Right. And that's our ideal is to work with someone's financial planner to make everything function the best possible way.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Cool. Great. Yeah. So tying it back to the comments, basically, you know, when you're using online estate planning tools, the individual filling out the paperwork online digitally may not understand precisely what they're doing and may not be armed with the right information to follow through and actually set up your estate the proper way to match it. Exactly. Yep. Okay. And full disclosure, occasionally, if I think a client won't get an estate plan, I will add a digital tool to the list. I kind of say, here's all the places you should look. Right. Educate, research yourself. And I'm like, if if I don't think they will, well, this is better than zero.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

It's just not much.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

I'll take it. Um, very good. All right. Next on the list, common estate planning mistakes you may encounter is one is assuming it's one size fit fits all, meaning doing setting up your estate the same way your neighbor did or your parents did, just because they said that's the right way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Right. Yeah. We see this play out both ways. Sometimes we'll have people call in and they're like, I want a trust. I need a trust, you know, and they're an a widow with one or two adult responsible children. They have one home. Everything is very tied down and simple in their estate. And we're like, we can create a trust for you, but you also are fine with a will only. And we're some estate planning attorneys are not as open to doing a will-only estate plan. We just don't want someone to feel like they have to go overboard if that's not how their estate is, and want to make sure to advise them on their options if they want to go that way. Um, conversely, though, we see people come in and they're opposed to a trust or, you know, say, um, oh, I only need a will. Things are very simple. And we're like, well, your wishes are simple. The way this will happen is not simple, you know. Um, and what I mean by that is like if an older couple, adult children, but they have four kids, um in that instance, their wishes are clear, their wishes are simple. It's like 25%, 25%, 25%, 25%. But doing that actually is not going to be simple, especially with real estate. You should really look into a trust in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

When we're talking to clients and they feel like it's one size fits all, the way that we like to break it down is to think about their assets. So, like the complexity of their estate, whether they are a small business owner, whether they have multiple pieces of real estate, whether they have collections that they want to give to particular people. And we break it down into their specific wishes. Who do you want to distribute to and what are the ages of those people? So when you have minors, the only way that you can give to them without just giving outright is through a trust. So that's like I we feel like it would be negligent on our part to say, yes, let's give your children even like $100,000 when they turn 18. You know, we've all been 18, and you don't you don't make great choices when you're 18 with a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

That makes sense. Yeah, and I'll have clients ask me, you know, well, what what what type of estate plan do I need? And besides the fact that I don't give legal advice, and so when on the surface it might look like a fairly simple situation, no kids, relatively simple finances. Yeah, I've seen enough to know, introduce the attorney and kind of get out of the way. Great. So the big piece of advice is if you're talking to your neighbor about their estate plan and they have one and you don't, that's that's really what you need to. That's your signal.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Not the type, but the fact that it exists.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Right. Exactly. I know. Just go go talk to somebody and get one in place.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Uh I like it. Next up on the list for common estate planning mistakes you encounter is assuming you don't need the ancillary documents that are involved with estate plan. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Okay. So, first of all, definition ancillary documents is the bucket for anything other than a will or a trust. So ancillary documents are the powers of attorney. So financial power of attorney, healthcare power of attorney, HIPAA waiver, and then advanced medical directive or living will. So a lot of times people say, okay, I need to get in touch with you because I need a will or I need a trust. Um, when we create an estate plan, we would be remiss if we didn't include all of your documents. And they'll say, Well, I don't want to pay for everything. Can I just get a will or a trust? And we're like, we hear you. But we can't predict what will happen in your life. And most frequently on our end, we see those ancillary documents playing a bigger role in whatever happens for you than actually the will or trust. Like the will or trust is a gift to your beneficiaries, to your people. But the powers of attorney and the living will, especially if you decide to get a living will, those are the ones that really, when push comes to shove, like if you become incapacitated, if you have a medical crisis or um a medical challenge, that's when those documents will come into play. And we just don't know when that might be.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah.

unknown 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And I I think going back to the sandwich generation sort of moniker that this show is associated with, a lot of my clients themselves don't fortunately need these ancillary documents in their daily lives as frequently. They're still just as important, not to diminish that. But it's with their parents. When their parents have a health event or issue, it's a mess if we don't have the documents in place. I've experienced that with my clients trying to scramble to get to their parents wherever they are, and then run down the legal documents that allow them to talk to the doctors directly or help, you know, um, and financial powers attorney, those types of things. And so it's it's super important to do and do that proactively. Reactively is a mess. Proactively is wonderful because you actually get the parent's opinion. It's in place.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

And we have encountered situations where once someone is beyond having mental capacity, they cannot get the documents in place. And so it's like that opportunity has passed. And again, I'm we all have seen it with loved ones as they've aged, but it can happen so quickly that even with the best intentions, all of a sudden that opportunity is gone.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

And then everyone is struggling to help.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's really rough reactively and it's really great proactively. So very especially powerful for the aging parent. Okay, next up is letting your documents get stale.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yes, yes, yes. Um, so we always advise to our clients that they update their documents and look at them at least every five to ten years. But I was seeking my husband's perspective as a layperson. And like, what do you think? Because we're in that like busy, we have somewhat young children, we're both working stage. Um, and our lives change quite a bit during this time period. Where when we put our estate plan in place, we actually listed our parents as the people that we would have step in in multiple scenarios. Um, but as time passes on, it's like that actually is not as wise of a decision because our parents are aging. And my husband said, and I completely agree with him, that it really should be every two to five years during this busy time, just because those things shift. Um and we also say if anything major happens in your life. Um, so if a parent passes away, you're uh moving for sure, then you want to look at your estate plan, even if you're just moving homes in the same metro area. So all of it is situation dependent, but more frequent, of course, during this busy stage when you don't have time.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

And yeah, life changes fast. I mean, when you have start having kids and the people that you want as guardians and caring for your estate and potentially making decisions on how your kids will be raised in the horrible event that someone else would need to raise your kids, is that can change quickly and evolve. I see friends on there that aren't as close two years later. Or exactly siblings who have issues, or parents is quite common. And and and you're like, I don't know if they were I was okay with my parents raising my kids in their early 60s, but in their mid-70s doesn't make as much sense. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

So yeah, exactly. And um it doesn't have to be like a complete revision. So we always advise just looking at your estate plan to remind yourself. Um, that is one of the services that we offer for people too, is an annual review to check in once a year and remind you like this is your estate plan. Are these still the people you want? And then if people have created their estate plan with us, we can update it for minimal charge and really make sure that it stays current. So once you have an estate planning professional that you trust, it's not that like threshold cost. Um, it's just making sure, like with every part of your life, just that the maintenance is happening.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

That's great advice. I think we try to at least force a dialogue every two years. And in the planning software we use, they have a really nice estate planning ledger where we get all the beneficiary titling listed. And so I'll encourage them to just flip through the document and just you know, if anything jumps out at them that's materially changed, let's just review it and get your get your attorney involved.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

So exactly good advice.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

All right, let's do a quick summary. So, number one, follow your attorney's advice and see it through.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Please.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Number two, uh, number two, be careful when using online estate planning tools. Number three, don't assume that everyone's estate plan needs are the same. Number four, trust the guidance of your professional with ancillary documents.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

And number five, don't let your documents get stale. Review them every two to five years if you're in a busy chapter of your life.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Awesome. Well, Annie, uh I I do have one last question for you. You're not done yet. Uh I have clients all over the country. What look a couple simple tips for helping somebody find, like locate an estate planning attorney that might be a fit for their needs. Are there boxes you want to see checked when somebody's out there looking for an estate planning attorney? I I hate not having solutions for my clients. It just drives me nuts. It's something I struggle with because I don't have a national network. I welcome your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah. So most estate planning attorneys are part of different networks. It's a special empathetic breed to become an estate planning attorney. We're like, yeah, more is more. We're always willing to ask our network to look and make sure that we're referring out to trusted people and people that we would also want to be around. So that would be a first step if you're looking for someone in a different metro area.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Don't be afraid to lean on your like estate planning attorney networks. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

So like your business network, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Well, Annie, thank you for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

My pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And and I think these are really awesome, concise, actionable ideas, which is our clients are busy. So we like concise, actionable, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

That's what I'm after too, Tom.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming on, and uh maybe we'll have to have you on again soon.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

I would love it.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

All right, Annie. Thanks so much.